Windows 10: Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly

Discus and support Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly in Windows 10 Backup and Restore to solve the problem; @jimbo45 Nope, MS won't deliberately publish anything that breaks your system. As you said, there are laws to prevent this from happening, and MS... Discussion in 'Windows 10 Backup and Restore' started by slicendice, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly


    @jimbo45

    Nope, MS won't deliberately publish anything that breaks your system. As you said, there are laws to prevent this from happening, and MS would be in the deep if they would go against the law.

    I fully agree that keeping user data safe should be first priority and it should be built in Windows. It should also be easy to use and not so overly complex and unreliable, like all previous backup functions has been in Windows. Good thing they are trying to get rid of all that. Now make something that actually works. *Smile
     
    slicendice, Apr 5, 2018
    #1

  2. Is there any file+directory level copy/backup utilities that will work properly under Win10, being able to incrementally copy source to destination faithfully?

    It seems to me that Win10's newer security features defeats the ability to do simple file/directory copies, especially incrementally, because there is no one privileged user-account that can overwrite _any_ destination files/directories. Now, there are files owned by Administrator, SYSTEM, TrustedInstaller, etc., so there is no program run under one privileged account that can always modify/read a given file/directory, especially when doing incremental updates to an existing destination. In Linux, a local root account can _always_ overwrite a given local file/directory.

    There are further complications, such as the directories/files in c:\Windows owned by TrustedInstaller not showing up in Windows Explorer (even when Explorer set to show all hidden/system files), hence not being able to be selected for copy with GUI tools such as Teracopy.

    I'm currently experiencing a related nightmare, where my Windows NTFS directory and Win10 works fine, but I can't do Windows updates because of some file corruptions. I can't run "sfc /scannow" either from the running Win10 nor from a a Win10 installation DVD doing repair (keeping files and apps), with the error "Windows Protection System cannot start the repair service." This seems insane, especially when the repair is being done from the DVD boot.
    Tried DISM and most of the other repair schemes found on the Web, all to no avail. Even a DVD repair not keeping files and apps will likely eventually come back to this problem (if there are corruptions) since the permission scheme seems inherently flawed. So, I'm not enthusiastic at all about taking the big plunge of a full install.

    With previous Windows OSs, I was always able to run "sfc /scannow." Sigh.

    :)
     
    Win10 User, Apr 6, 2018
    #2
  3. Andre Da Costa, Apr 6, 2018
    #3
  4. ZeyanLu Win User

    Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly

    Folder in an external USB hard disk disappeared after upgrading to Windows 10.

    thank you for your advice.

    I backup files to external USB HD disk , then format C: before install win10.

    Win10 install media is created by Media Creation Tool .

    And the missed folder does not in the windows.old.

    I think it's a NTFS issue , I had do a full disk search for the missed files, but no one being found .

    BTW, I had done a test. On a windows7 PC copy a folder to external USB HD, another win10 PC can not read the folder, but use the win7 PC , the missed folder work fine.

    Does Microsoft offer some tool to handle this problem?
     
    ZeyanLu, Apr 6, 2018
    #4
  5. Berton Win User
    I'm confused, my computers running Win10 Home and Win10 Pro don't have a Folder with the name NTFS. NTFS is usually referring to the formatting of a drive or partition/s on a drive [every drive needs at least 1] as does FAT, FAT16, FAT32 or exFAT. [FAT and FAT16 are old and seldom seen.]

    Windows doesn't mind copying from a disk of one format to a disk of a different format except NTFS and exFAT are needed when working with single file size of 4GB or larger that FAT32 can't handle. An older chart for reference:
    NTFS.com. NTFS vs FAT vs exFAT
     
    Berton, Apr 6, 2018
    #5
  6. If you're talking about performing an offline backup using a boot disk that provides a forensic quality backup (includes all permissions, Windows Registry values, etc.) then the only program on the market we've found that fulfills that need is Paragon. Acronis' quality falls short in a number of areas on this, and often restoring an image fails using Acronis because in testing the most common result was a blue screen upon attempting to boot the restored image from a backup of hard disk of equivalent size. Most free programs that claim to offer the same feature are often buggy as well, and deliver similar results.

    Paragon also supports writing disk backups to a Virtual Drive file, and it is possible to copy data from a Virtual Drive file in Windows using the Paragon Hard Disk Manager Software.

    Full disclosure, we can only attest to the above in a UEFI / GPT Environment, and it is possible the same is not true of MBR; however we've not tested MBR since we've not used MBR architecture since 2009.

    Hope the suggestion helps.
     
    StepLadderInc, Apr 6, 2018
    #6
  7. "my Windows NTFS directory and Win10 works fine" = "my Win10 running with the NTFS file system's directories+files works fine"

    This is an aside to the issue of Microsoft using hack-upon-hack to protect the hacking of the file system by having the OS not allow the Administer account write/read _any_ directory file regardless of ownership/permission (to fix/overwrite bad/new files as need). This "protection" also defeats the legitimate need to write/read directories+files for fixing file corruption or doing incremental directory+file level copy/back-up.

    Win10 makes a big fuss about its ability to do "in-place upgrade with the ability to save user files+apps" but this can't possibly work (for all cases) if the "upgrading/updating" utility can't modify _any_ files/directories that need to be written/overwritten. So, it comes down to really poorly thought-out OS architecture and false advertising.

    One would have to use Linux (perhaps using live DVD/CD) to modify the NTFS file system directories+files while _ignoring_ ownership/permissions to categorically fix all file system problems.
     
    Win10 User, Apr 6, 2018
    #7
  8. Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly

    Win10 User, you're 100% correct about that. We'll share a few thread URL's with you here that touch upon that same issue, and some other development problems courtesy of Microsoft's own developers that include various other issues as well as your example of problems Microsoft's development team failed to prepare for.

    Our biggest issue with Microsoft's developers is that they're making frequent use of the "EVERYONE" permissions string in folders like C:\Users to cop out of doing the hard work of assigning reasonable permissions structures on Windows 10's various folder that require a more intricate approach to using more appropriate and secure permissions strings that don't interfere with Machine Administrators ability to perform their work, and inspect folders, files, processes, backup, etc.

    URL's as follows that cover the same type of issues that you just brought up:

    Stabilize WindowsApps (Windows Store) - Setting Environment Variables - This thread here may allow for Machine Administrators to overcome some of the obstacles we're all facing when it comes to Microsoft's 'over'protection; however a team effort from the community will be the best way to figure out the best approaches.

    The number 1 bug in our professional opinion is that current builds have a major Visual Runtime Libraries Compatibility problem for the 2015 VRL's.... It was reported to Microsoft by us in a follow up on this Microsoft TechNet Thread...

    Failed to install Visual C++ 2015 Redistributable Package on Windows 10 x64

    This additional thread that wouldn't fit on TechNet for initial posting and is on Microsoft Answers covers issues that also are affected by the issue that you brought up as well Win10 User, and include a response from MS Support that is just as thorough as we've all come to expect from Microsoft; being of course not thorough at all with no attention to detail or displaying any demonstrable diagnostic mindset or skills for troubleshooting...

    https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/...=1521665726176

    Hoping some of the information we've included is helpful to drumming up some ideas to using manual settings that will allow for more stable function of Windows 10.

    SLI - IT-IS Team
     
    StepLadderInc, Apr 6, 2018
    #8
  9. I'm looking for some on-line utilities to do the (flat) file+directory copies. By flat, I mean verbatim copies of directory trees from one place to another, not some archiving/backup utilities that takes a source directory tree and puts it in some image file. Utilities like Paragon Hard Disk Manager can copy partitions wholesale, but can't do "flat" incremental copy/backup, where destination directory trees reflect source directory trees.

    Once one uses some off-line mechanisms, then protection schemes (can) go away. Linux can (and does) ignore the artificial ownership/permissions imposed by Windows and can write/overwrite anything in the off-line NTFS file system to do repairs. It's just sad that the off-line Win10 DVD repair utilities still use the (broken) on-line protection schemes in attempting to repair/reinstall the (possibly corrupted) file system.
     
    Win10 User, Apr 6, 2018
    #9
  10. @Win10 User

    What is it that you want to back up exactly? Genrally you don't want to take incremental backups of System Files, only user files and settings. There are however cases where you want to backup files that are neither user nor system files, but has owner set to something other than Administrator.

    You can use XCOPY and SHADOWCOPY for backing up files. SHADOWCOPY can even backup files that are in use.
     
    slicendice, Apr 6, 2018
    #10
  11. Bree New Member
    Don't forget ROBOCOPY, a standard Windows command since NT4...

    Robocopy - Wikipedia
     
  12. f14tomcat Win User
    f14tomcat, Apr 6, 2018
    #12
  13. Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly

    *Doh

    How could I forget to mention that? That's the best tool for the job and even recognizes archiving attributes and can work accordingly.

    Thanks for adding this to the list.
     
    slicendice, Apr 6, 2018
    #13
  14. Win10 User, If you're not going to use a professional tool like Paragon, then both Bree & "slicendice" have given you some great options for backing up directories and files. Sorry, we can't offer much info or thoughts on SyncToy, save to say it is Microsoft, and it might be a great option for you; however we don't use any Sync features at all, and disable the ability to sync data on our systems in general for security.

    With xCopy - Be sure to use it with the following switches in Command Line to keep the Permissions, Ownerships, Auditing Information, etc.

    EXAMPLE xCopy in Command Prompt:

    xcopy /x /k /b /e /g /f c:\xdrivedata\*.* x:\drivedata

    Be careful with the " /g " switch because that will allow copying of encrypted data to a destination that doesn't support encryption, and will cause the encryption on those same files to be lost at the point they're copied to. The original files will keep their encryption. Sometimes it is necessary to use the " /g " switch, but other times not. When and when not to use the " /g " switch is strictly at your discretion.

    With RoboCopy, just be mindful of the following from the Wiki Bree was kind enough to post the most, because there may be cases when you want to use xCopy or a professional tool that allows for more precision control:

    [BEGINS QUOTE FROM WIKI];
    Folder copier, not file copier[edit]

    Robocopy syntax is markedly different from standard copy commands, as it accepts only folder names as its source and destination arguments. File names and wild-card characters (such as "*.*") are not valid source or destination arguments.
    However, files may be selected or excluded using the optional "file" filtering argument (which may include wildcards) along with various other options.[14] File specifications can refer only to the filenames relative to the folders already selected for copying. Fully qualified path names are not supported.
    For example, to copy the file foo.txt from directory c:\bar to c:\baz, one could use the following syntax:
    robocopy c:\bar c:\baz foo.txt
    And to copy only PDF files — with file extension .pdf — from directory c:\bar to c:\baz, one could use the following syntax:
    robocopy c:\bar c:\baz *.pdf
    ;[ENDS QUOTE FROM WIKI]

    A lot of great ideas and preventative maintenance leads here, and definitely plenty of options to choose from.

    Best of Luck,

    SLI - IT-IS Team
     
    StepLadderInc, Apr 6, 2018
    #14
  15. @Win10 User

    I understand that Windows NTFS file system and application execution permissions can be a bit overwhelming.

    When administering file system permissions the basic ideology is to restrict permissions as much as possible on the whole system as a baseline. And then only enable specific users to access specific folders.

    When it comes to applications and services, one have to use the same ideology. For a user who tries to setup IIS server the proper way for the first time would be overwhelmed by the amount of settings that has to be configured before it works properly and securely.

    Once one understand the basic ideology behind a NT system, it gets a lot easier.

    The Administrator has always access to everything. But I am not talking about the Administrator group, but the built in Administrator (similar to root in Linux) that is disabled by default. One should only revert to this account during emergencies or when setting up things that only this account has access to. After that it should be secured behind a very complicated password and disabled again.

    There is a whole science behind this whole NT ideology and it requires a deeper education in order to understand the whole thinking process.
     
    slicendice, Apr 6, 2018
    #15
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Win10 NTFS file copy/backup utility that handles permissions correctly

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